Curse

Mac Sidewinder · May 09, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Ok so i'm new to playing an assassin and I have a pretty newb question. I have looked through some builds and I am intrigued by the MS/DB build but I don't see a lead attack listed. Moebius says it is an off hand attack that follows a dual attack and Death Blossom says it is a dual attack that follows an off hand attack. So how do you get the chain started without a lead attack? I thought that the chain had to go ---- Lead-Off Hand-Dual?

Mac

Kyomi Tachibana · May 09, 2008, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Lead[Golden Fox Strike]-Offhand[Wild Strike]-Dual[Death Blossom]-Offhand[Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]

Or while Enchanted - Offhand[Golden Phoenix Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom]-> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]

On a hexed foe - Offhand[Black Spider Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]

On a KD'd foe - Offhand[Falling Spider]-> Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]

Edit: Like Mist says below, [Critical Agility] is hands down the best IAS to use as a PvE sin, I don't use [Critical Defenses] as I don't find myself needing that often, but it's still good defense against some of the harder hitting melee mobs out there.

Mist Walker Skarloc · May 09, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

MS+DB aren't the only skills in the build. You open with whatever you want, I like [Golden Fox strike] and [Wild Strike] because they both have short recharges and are unblockable. Then you go ahead spamming [Death Blossom] and [Moebius strike] repeatedly.

Remember to take [Critical Defense] and [Critical Agility], 'cause you'd be an idiot to pass up on a permanent (unless you get very unlucky) 75% block chance, +20-30ish armour and 33% IAS. Even if you don't take Critical Defense, ALWAYS take Agility.

Luminarus · May 09, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

[Falling Lotus Strike] works on KD'd foes instead of [Falling Spider Strike]

But yeah, use one of the offhands that skip a lead, or use [Golden Fox Strike] + [Wild Strike]

miskav · May 09, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

It's not required to follow the chain like that, because certain attacks skip a link, or have to follow-up another link.

Just read some skills and you'll get my point.

Zahr Dalsk · May 09, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Lead attack like Leaping Mantis Sting, followed by Exhausting Assault, the Moebius Strike.

Kaleban · May 09, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Don't forget, if running a build with Deadly Arts that there are several skills like Iron Palm or Mantis Touch that count as a link in the lead-offhand-dual chain, and can add in some real variability and versatility to any sin build.

But every skill says what it requires or follows, such as [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill], which will hit an opponent ONLY if you the sin are enchanted. But it does not require a lead, and for the longest time was the preferred opener of AoD sins.

Mac Sidewinder · May 10, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Thx everybody. So I guess if you qualify (ie are enchanted, etc) then you don't have to have a lead attack, the off hand will still hit. But I guess its still wise to have a lead attack so that if for some reason you don't qualify (get enchantments stripped, etc) then you can still open with your skills? Seems to me that there are quite a few enchantment stripping foes out there.

Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.

Thx for the help
Mac

Tyla · May 10, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Minors and Survivors.
If your build is out of energy, it needs more energy management and not energy, in all reality.

And lead skips won't trigger by lead.

FengShuiDove · May 10, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

P.S. One more fine tuning point, you could also OFFHAND skip with that build by slapping [Exhausting Assault] in your build after [Golden Fox Strike]. That gives you fast and spammable interrupts on important casters like Ele and Monk bosses especially in HM.

Just a thought for some time you might need it =).

P.P.S. I keep Zealous Daggers around and swap if my target doesn't die before my MS+DB starts running out of energy.

Kaleban · May 10, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

Thx everybody. So I guess if you qualify (ie are enchanted, etc) then you don't have to have a lead attack, the off hand will still hit. But I guess its still wise to have a lead attack so that if for some reason you don't qualify (get enchantments stripped, etc) then you can still open with your skills? Seems to me that there are quite a few enchantment stripping foes out there.

Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.

Thx for the help
Mac

There are a variety of skills that skip leads or require certain conditions to be met. I used to run builds that avoided leads like the plague, but have since gotten back into it. Why? Because to have a solid chain that can be used under any circumstances is better imho than a fragile chain that means you sit around auto-attacking for twenty seconds. Also, I hate blocking stances, so I usually do something like:

[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill]*Insert Dual Attack*[skill]Impale[/skill]

Depending on the dual attack, you have an attack chain who's only counter is blind/blurred vision, and most people/mobs don't use blurred vision. Good dual attacks are:

[skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] - Note it being unblockable
[skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - Especially good if using [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] as well
[skill]Vampiric Assault[/skill] - armor ignoring life steal
[skill]Blades of Steel[/skill] - my personal favorite, simply for the animation
[skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill] or [skill]Trampling Ox[/skill] - for the knockdown

A fun combo to use in PvP against spamming casters (making sure you're not blinded or can bypass block somehow, such as [skill]Rigor Mortis[/skill]) is to use:

[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill][skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - give three interrupts plus exhaustion very quickly on casters, then allows you to do some serious damage, possibly getting Moebius' conditional recharge after one or two combos, at which point you can chain interrupts. Will shut down a caster very quickly, although if energy becomes an issue, sub in [skill]Critical Strike[/skill] for DB.

As for the preferred insignias and such, I almost always run full radiants, a superior attribute rune for whichever I'm speccing in (usually Dagger or Deadly), a Superior Vigor, minor Critical Strikes, a Rune of Clarity and one Rune of Attunement, giving me 35 energy base. I also usually use Zealous Daggers as my main, switching to Vampiric for spiking and Ebon vs. Warriors. My Ebon set is +5 energy with an enchant 20% mod on it. My attributes usually look like 16 DM, 13 CS, and 3 DA, with some variation depending on daggers, secondary, and overall build (such as a DA spike caster). Some people recommend only using minor runes to conserve health, the way I look at is I want to kill as quickly as possible, and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for. Especially considering the already massive damage that can be caused by elementalists and other high damage classes, its better to depend on a skill set rather than a small life buffer, IMHO.

Bobby2 · May 10, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for

Do your monks agree with your views?

moriz · May 10, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

i know i don't

Kaleban · May 10, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Do your monks agree with your views?

Most of the time, yes. The secret to playing a good sin is not trying to play a 600 smite monk in flash armor, its killing your opponent so quickly that they cannot do damage back, as well as proper positioning and knowing how and when to aggro.

I'd say 95% of my death count was from doing Raisu chest runs back when they were profitable.

In most cases, a competent monk casts [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] on my sin to protect against elemental spiking, and I usually hit Critical Defenses before charging in. Nearly impervious to melee, and spell spikes are kept to 48 damage per hit, which any good monk can heal through.

My first character was a monk, and I can tell you that the biggest problem with any melee class is the tendency to charge in without regard for protection or defense, the sin's shadowstepping can exacerbate the problem. However, a sin is no different from an overextending whammo or overconfident dervish. The sin however has several skills to make escaping a bad situation easier, the whammo and dervish do not (unless secondary assassin).

Most of the people in my guild and alliance really enjoy playing with me when I'm on my sin, because I kill fast and don't over-aggro. I usually run with anywhere from 455 to 485 life, and have no problems in any group, whether H/H, PUG or guild-play. You just have to adjust your build based on your teammates' capabilities, like any other profession.

moriz · May 10, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

what you described only works in pve and lower level arenas. as soon as you face competent opponents, your low hp will come back to bite you very hard. the few extra damage you're doing will be miniscule compared to the punishment your opponents are doing upon your mom's energy pool. as soon as your opponents realize you have low hp, they'll burn every enchant strip on you as soon as prot spirit goes up, forcing your monk to spend 10e after 10e, or watch you blow up.

playing smartly, also, does not work against competent opponents. why? because they will be too. unfortunately for assassins, they can't do a whole lot outside of their combo. so in the time between you can spike, the least you can do is to not be a detriment to your team. having a low HP total will definately do that.

Kaleban · May 11, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

So for the warrior who chases down the sin and is smacking him around for 60+ damage a hit, what does the monk do then? A difference of 30 health is not going to amount to much will it?

Putting in an extra double attack because of high energy with maxed out dagger mastery and critical strikes can easily hit 120+ damage, more on caster squishies. If the monk is burning energy to protect a sin who's trying to duke it out with a Shock whammo or bunny thumper ranger, then neither player is doing their job right obviously.

The only sins who run dagger builds with minor runes, at least in my experience are simply not pumping out enough damage to do what they're supposed to do, i.e. kill quickly. Sins in PvP who build too defensively are doing two things wrong instead of one:

1. They don't have enough defensive skills to actually play a successful defense AND
2. They hamper their primary ability to deal out damage and kill targets.

Besides, your logic applies to ANY character who gets focus fired by an enemy team, most people assume a sin's low armor is the reason for damage, not a slightly lower hp pool. If you're telling me you can tell the numerical value of a sin's health by watching how fast it drops, when the difference is only 30 health, I won't believe you. If the sin has 300 health, that's a different story altogether.

Bobby2 · May 11, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So for the warrior who chases down the sin and is smacking him around for 60+ damage a hit, what does the monk do then? A difference of 30 health is not going to amount to much will it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban, earlier

and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for

Yay math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Sins in PvP who build too defensively are doing two things wrong instead of one:

1. They don't have enough defensive skills to actually play a successful defense AND
2. They hamper their primary ability to deal out damage and kill targets.

1. On the contrary: one would expect such players to have too many defensive skills.
2. This an argument against minor runes? Live moar = kill moar

moriz · May 11, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

the difference between 16 dagger and 14 dagger is miniscule, about 2 more damage per hit wit autoattacks. a tiny bit more with dagger skills. if you factor in the additional 4% extra critical hits.... that's still very little damage difference.

on the other hand, the difference between 560hp and 485hp is huge. that's the equivalent of running around with about 8% death penalty at all times, with very marginal gains on damage. congrats, your spike on a SP sin now deals 590 damage instead of 580, and you are now much more vulnerable to sudden bursts of damage in return.

purposely lowering your health total, for such tiny gains, equals stupidity. why do you think the shove assassins, mo/a smiters, sig of toxic shock builds, etc work so well in AB? that's because most of the people there run around with 460hp. each one of those builds just happen to deal 450 to 470 damage, just enough to kill those idiots.

Kaleban · May 11, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

why do you think the shove assassins, mo/a smiters, sig of toxic shock builds, etc work so well in AB? that's because most of the people there run around with 460hp. each one of those builds just happen to deal 450 to 470 damage, just enough to kill those idiots.

Or could it be that Alliance Battles are not exactly organized PvP, and any tard with a Factions account linked can jump into a game, regardless of build, skill-level or gear?

Nah, it must be a 30hp total difference. In point of fact, I rarely see one single person in AB JUST barely killing character after character, its usually four to 12 people who gang up on one person, then move on to the next. Which is why the score is usually 500 to 50 in most battles.

You can believe what you want, and call everyone who does not agree with your opinion an idiot, I'll reserve the right to play as I want, and since I have fun and am pretty effective with 485 hp, I don't consider myself an idiot, tyvm.

Again, if your vision is so acute that you can tell all these differences while playing your monk and healing 11 other people at the same time, then I bow to your superior skills. If on the other hand, you are simply just making uninformed assumptions, as I suspect, then perhaps you should cut people some slack. 30 hitpoints is not enough of a buffer in most battles, and your example of AB is foolish because of the amount of people and damage, as well as the random and chaotic nature. Some teams don't even have a monk, you might take that into consideration as well.

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Or could it be that Alliance Battles are not exactly organized PvP, and any tard with a Factions account linked can jump into a game, regardless of build, skill-level or gear?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

just enough to kill those idiots.

He said the word "Idiots". Comparable to "Tard" if I'm right with what you're saying.

All you did there is just expand on his point while agreeing.
Less health can work in AB, PvE and RA, but anywhere else? Out of luck, buddy. Well, unless you come against a bad TA / HA / GvG team...